News

« Headlines

Booksellers against firm sale

10.03.08 Alison Flood

Senior retailers at Waterstone's, Amazon, Blackwell, John Smith and Foyles used the platform of the Independent Publishers Guild annual conference in Brighton to come out against publishers' moves towards firm sale on backlist.

A "Question Time With The Retailers" session on Saturday saw Waterstone's m.d. Gerry Johnson, John Smith deputy chairman Willie Anderson, Blackwell c.e.o. Vince Gunn, former Borders c.e.o. David Roche, Foyles vice chairman Bill Samuel, and Amazon UK books director Kes Nielsen grilled by independent publishers about their businesses.

Asked about how they viewed publishers' moves towards firm sale on backlist, the retailers were universally negative.

It depends on what your objective is," Johnson told delegates. "If it is to reduce waste in book publishing, then it's not backlist you should be concerned about—it's frontlist that generates the most returns."

He was also adamant that the move should not boil down to a discuss about terms. "I don't think this is a terms negotiation—it is a 'how we are going to work differently?' discussion," he said. "If all you're trying to achieve is a cut and run approach to selling then sure, it's just a negotiation. But that's not what people want—I think what they want is a lower level of returns."

He added: "The discussion has got to be not firm sale and 1% or 2% [extra discount], it's what are we going to do differently to get returns down—and then talk frontlist not backlist."

He also said that a move to firm sale would prove very difficult for independent booksellers. "Do you want an independent bookselling sector in your market?" he asked publishers. "This is the last retail market that has a significant representation of independent retailers, and you really have to decide whether or not you want to devalue that . . . Before we profess to resolve all our green issues simply by putting firm sale on backlist, let's pulp a little less of Jordan and Richard Hammond and promote the cause of the range bookseller."

Johnson's comments were greeted with a round of applause by the independent publishers present.

Anderson was also concerned about the move, saying it would put all the risk onto the retailer. "If you're dealing with 250,000 books published a year, how can you buy every single one firm? No other retailing business has the same number of products coming to them, or one supplier because the publisher has a monopoly over that book," he said. "It puts all the onus onto the retailer. Publishers have got to take some responsibility for the volume and quality of what they are publishing."

Gunn said that any move would mean a big change in the relationship between publisher and retailer. "We could [move to firm sale], but things would change," he said. "We would be looking at bigger margins."

Samuel agreed: "Books are going to be pulped in any case if they are not sold. I see no problem with us doing the pulping, but it does have to change the whole structure. It would mean the product then belongs 100% to us and we should have right to set the price." He also commented on Hachette's move to firm sale on backlist by the end of 2008. "Hachette said they would [move to firm sale], I think very much for green reasons. I'm always impressed when a major publishing house makes a green decision when there is profit involved."

Nielsen said that Amazon's returns were "probably the lowest in the business". "The thing that frustrates us is when we hear the value bandied about by publishers on firm sale, saying it's worth another couple of extra points of discount-so why weren't we getting that anyway?"

He does not believe the industry will move across to firm sale in the next couple of years. "I think it will happen in pockets. One individual retailer will reach an agreement with a publisher. But it will change the relationship considerably, because the ownership of the risk is passed over."

Retail gerry johnson Borders blackwell willie anderson John Smith Foyles David Roche Home Alison Flood

Add comment

By posting on this website you agree to the Bookseller Comments Policy. Comments go direct to live, please be relevant, brief and definitely not abusive. Report any "unsuitable" comments by clicking the links.

Name

Comment

Email

Comments on this article

By Clive Keeble

I would respond to Gerry Johnson by suggesting that if an independent bookdealer cannot cope with the requirements of total firm sale, for all stock, then in my honest opinion they have no long-term future in the modern booktrade.

10 Mar 08 16:01

Unsuitable?

By JULIAN RIVERS

Firm sale agreements are complex for a number of reasons.However, buying frontlist firm [ where no sales history exists ] should be funded by at least a 5- 7% increase in terms from publishers . This at worst allows an opportunity to discount to clear overstocks . When trialing firm sale at Dillons the biggest problem was infact encouraging the branches to subscribe adequately quantities , as most were concerned by the threat of becoming overstocked with books selling inadequately in the first month , or worse sales stopping suddenly after the initial P.R. Backlist being sold firm is a bit of non issue , returns should always be negligable in a well run shop . However, to allow backlist stock reduction and rotation publishers should allow a credit discount on request by the bookseller rather than a physical return .

10 Mar 08 16:31

Unsuitable?

By Penelope Le Masson Paris Bookseller

Green only makes sense if it is real-by getting rid of back stock - books will disappear completely: returned books should no longer be pulped sold for 1 £ or 1 euro througha special charity-run system where the monry is directly channelled into books and/or education for poor countries in Africa, Asia and South America- the books would be stamped with a special stamp so that they could not legally enter the second hand business. This solves the problem of paper waste- and is a compromise for the publisher and the bookseller and victory for world education.

11 Mar 08 07:20

Unsuitable?

By Who?

One of the problems with returns is that some companies are too eager to return books. How many times do we return a copy of Great Expectations because it has not sold for 6 months and then find somebody wants it before it comes back in again? How oftendo we receive a returns picking list and in the couple of days it takes to start, some of the books have already sold. I am well aware of the problem of dead stock but if companies accepted that some books can stay on the shelf forever and will sell at some time or other, than a lot of man hours could be saved and used to much better use. A move to firmsale, while not necessarily positive overall, would certainly assist in cutting down the endless pointless returns we pull each month.

11 Mar 08 15:23

Unsuitable?

By Clive Keeble

Quite frankly I am flabbergasted that Gerry Johnson should speak so vehemently against "firm sale", especially since it is an open secret that about 9 months ago he warned senior booksellers that Waterstone's were contemplating taking all backlist stock *firm sale*. Presumably the publishers rightly refused to offer a dime in extra discount. In my experience the most difficult sales area to predict is that for stationery (especially diaries and calendars) ; not because they are only supplied firm sale, but rather due to changes in public purchasing habits. I presume that stationery is also only supplied *firm sale* to Waterstone's and Borders. Most independent bookdealers with whom I have discussed the matter can see that total *firm sale* would hold few fears : it is strange, but oh so predictable, that the corporate outlets with their supermarket mindset are the Luddites.

12 Mar 08 08:32

Unsuitable?

By I Like My Job,

"move to firmsale, while not necessarily positive overall, would certainly assist in cutting down the endless pointless returns we pull each month. " I am just a humble grunt of a bookseller, with no specific expertise in returns. But I see, month after month, that we are returning books which have been in promotions (these seem to be the books we return most of - not backlist), only to be told they are back on a promotions list a few weeks later, so we promptly have to re-order quantities of the books we have just got rid of. Surely this is ridiculous? The other thing is, how will firm sale affect the author? (That's the one who writes the book, just to remind y'all :-)). Even well-known authors already find it hard for their back list to stay in print (see Susan Hill, Doris Lessing). If bookshops have to take backlist on firm sale, won't they be even more cautious about ordering those books? Thus diminishing range and authors' earnings (and the last survey I saw put the average author's earnings at under £5 K p.a., making them by far the worst paid link in the whole bookselling chain). Won't we, therefore, end up with even more of the stuff that booksellers know they can still return - more Jordan, more Peter Kay, more one-hit-wonder authors? Perhaps it should be the most hyped books of each season that are firm sale - that might force booksellers to buy rationally rather than ordering high and returning high. We might see more balanced bookshops, with more range and choice, more personality. Except that the way things are going it seems hardly anyone involved in books (apart from readers and writers) wants that any more...

12 Mar 08 10:27

Unsuitable?

By Clive Keeble

@I Like My Job. If you want to know what Susan Hill thinks about Returns and Firm Sale - I suggest the following archived Chark Blog http://charkinblog.macmillan.com/CommentView,guid,fa6566e2-b434-4a50-a3b6-a4952bc10853.aspx

12 Mar 08 13:20

Unsuitable?

By Kirsten Elliott, Akeman Press

Publishers might be happier about returns if the bookshops looked after the books while they had them. I have recently had 48 books returned by Gardners, but I will only be refunding the money on 22 of them - ther rest are now in an unsaleable condition. Fortunately it is part of our terms and conditions that refunds will only be paid on books that are resaleable. It quite clear, from the state of these that they have been sitting around in a bookshop. They are dirty, and most have damage, in some cases severe damage, to the cover. If bookshops like Waterstones actually owned the books, they might take greater care.

14 Mar 08 09:36

Unsuitable?

By Dyan Blacklock

While I agree with Mr Anderson's comment that publishers must take greater responsibility for the volume and quality of what they publish, I take issue with Samuel's remark which sniped at green issues being somehow handy cost savers for publishers. He is completely missing the point. 'Green' solutions must be effective on as many levels as possible to ensure we all stay in business; No one will want to be environmentally sound if it reduces profits long term. Profitablity is central to staying in business and becoming aware of our environmental responsibilities and taking effective steps to reduce our carbon footprint is central to our planetary survival. It may seem like a handy excuse to Mr Samuel, but the carbon costs of sale or return are absolutely unviable on every level and every part of the book industry needs to examine its place in that issue.

14 May 08 07:04

Unsuitable?

By Robert Kinnear

I completely agree with Willie Anderson that publishers have to take some responsibility for the volume and quality of the titles they are publishing, but so surely do the booksellers need to take some responsibility for their buying decisions.It seems to me that at the moment all the risks rest with the publishers.

19 Jun 08 01:09

Unsuitable?

See Also